Butchart Gardens, Victoria BC (trekearth.com)
Methodology
I am not a chauvinist. I am not a feminist. Females are equal to males, both made in the image of God, Genesis 1: 27. I am a Biblical theologian. I write this post because like the previous article it came up in a recent discussion. That is all. That is where many of my ideas come from.
As a philosophical theologian and philosopher of religion I like to state that Church Ministry as a profession is not my 'bag'. But all Christians should be ministers at least as in small 'm'. I have never had any interest in becoming a Reverend. Frankly, I would be a pretty useless theologian and Christian philosopher if I could not minister to someone in Christian love. I do this. While I was in Dublin in 1995 a lady tried to kill herself, sort of, by leaving her baby and carriage across the street outside of a pub and she threatened to jump into the River Liffey and I did council her until the police came. I think she was trying to get her husband's attention. I had just been in the city for thirty minutes. Welcome to Dublin. A very nice city by the way.
Government
The other day I was briefly discussing women as elders in the Church with a Reverend. We basically have a very similar view. We agreed that the overseer (episkopos) Browning (1997: 112), in the New Testament was a man and should be today, even with cultural considerations such as more education for women. I did state I thought the issue did get slippery in regard to educated Christian women with Doctorates in congregations with men with much less spiritual maturity. Especially small congregations. I stand by this.
My scanner is small and some of the texts are very large and so the scans will not be perfectly straight, my apologies once again.
Strong
Page 40
There are other considerations such as I Timothy 3 pointing out that an overseer should be the husband of one wife. So a man. Also in Ephesians 5 there is the concept of the husband as head of the wife and as Christ is the head of the Church, a reasonable resulting view being a woman therefore should not be the spiritual head of a local church, if she is not the spiritual head of the home. I do not conclude from this that a woman should not be a head of a corporation, country, etc.
Browning states that when the overseers met they were considered the elders (presbuteroi) Browning (1997: 112). Wallace notes it in English as (presbytereroi). Wallace (1996: 347). Thiessen expresses his opinion that the terms pastor, elder and bishop all were one and the same office in the New Testament quoting Acts 20. Thiessen (1956: 418). He quotes Saint Jerome that stated the elder was identical to the bishop in the text the 'Early Years of Christianity' from E. De Pressense. Thiessen (1956: 418). Wallace states that the term episkopos/overseer is used interchangeably with versions for the word for elder in Acts 20 and in Titus. Wallace (1996: 347). Wallace reasons overseers are always elders but he is not sure that elders are always overseers. Some elders may have not been overseers. Wallace (1996: 347).
Strong
Page 80
If in the New Testament when the overseers met they were the elders then there could be an argument made that the only legitimate elders today in a church are overseers/pastors/Reverends.
However, with my findings it is not crystal clear that only overseers were elders Biblically.
Browning states women could be regarded as deacons. Browning (1997: 93). Deacons were agents of the overseers. Browning (1997: 93).
Conclusions
If what Browning appears to be stating and what Thiessen is stating is the Biblical case, then today's elected elders that are not overseers are actually more like deacons. So, there can be an argument and discussion on whether or not women can be elders/deacons by this modern church definition only. But, I do not think they can be elders/overseers Biblically. This is a slippery topic.
If the other view suggested by Wallace is the Biblical case, then women can become Biblical deacons only.
Yes, this in my view is somewhat semantics.
BROWNING, W.R.F. (1997) Oxford Dictionary of the Bible, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
STRONG, J. (1890)(1986) Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.
THIESSEN, HENRY C. (1956) Introductory Lectures in Systematic Theology, Grand Rapids, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
WALLACE, R.S. (1996) ‘Elder' in Walter A. Elwell (ed.), Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Books.
Butchart Gardens, Victoria, BC (trekearth.com)
Victoria, BC (trekearth.com)
Now I admit while I was attending Bible School I used to nap in the
library while I waiting for driving partner Bobby Buff to do his assignments. As he did his work at school and I did mine at home, but this is one place I would never nap.
Well, we have had some really smart blondes (comment) on this blog...I imagine this one is smart too. Thanks PMH for the photos.
38 comments:
Ohh, this is wonderful, the pics is perfects!!!
Happy new year for you!
Kisses!!
Thank you Quétlin, wonderful and perfect sounds good to me.
Happy New Year, 2011 in Brasil.
There are other considerations such as I Timothy 3 pointing out that an overseer should be the husband of one wife.
Do you think "the husband of one wife," other than polygamy, would also include a man who was not divorced and remarried?
A friend of mine has been reading a lot on organic churches and home churches, and we are planning to start an organic church, after his visiting many of the churches in the city, and me visiting a number of them, and both of us being tired of all the politics that go in within the church leadership, and tired of local church being treated more like a business, and all the in-fighting, plus the lack of a desire by about 99% of the members to go out and do any witnessing, plus the total lack of any real discipleship for new believers. Most of all, the problem with many Pastors acting as dictators, which has sometimes resulted in church splits.
Thanks, Jeff.
Alan G. Nute in his commentary on 1 and 2 Timothy/Titus stated it was improbable that polygamy was in mind. Perhaps it was intended that the overseer should refrain from remarriage at the death of a spouse. For modern application the passage may be preaching for a proper Biblical, legal Christian marriage. Nute (1986: 1478).
NUTE. ALAN G.(1986) '1 and 2 Timothy and Titus', in F.F. Bruce, (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Marshall Pickering/Zondervan.
The information in this blog is really a appreciable. I would really like to say that the knowledge you have about this is quit impressing. But the main thing here is the way to present the information, and you have done it very nicely. Great work and love to visit on your blog again and again. Keep posting nice information.
Thank you, kindly.
I hope to visit both India and New Delhi one day.
Happy 2011.
I like the sunset.
If the men take all the top leadership slots, what do the women get? Answer: Teaching the children. Most of the important spiritual training will be done by the time the children are 12, and the women get to do this. The men (per Jeff's note) spend their time in pointless bickering and showing off their preaching skills to people who are past learning, while the women do the heavy lifting where it matters the most. I think Paul's formula is great for both the women and the church!
Teaching the children is very important, agreed.
Cheers.
The part about children was the only part of my comment that I agreed with also! ;-)
It was a fine comment overall.;)
On my other blog is my yearly most satirical post...
non-conformist of the year
I love the pics! They rock!
Happy New Year! :)
Thanks your photos are nice too.
Happy New Year, 2011.
I'm sorry. I dont't speak english but I go traslution in Google. Thank you very mach. His blog it is beautiful e profound. Shalon.
Happy New Year!
Thank you, Katia.
I returned the following. Nice to meet you.
Happy, 2011.
Funny, Dr. Kingpin told me "The Joy of Stats" clip was totally my kind of thing.
As it happens, I had posted the same clip several weeks ago on facebook without his knowing. Guess things travel around.
The world is a changing place. As is my blogging world.
When we look at these lists as qualities that are exhibited in Elders rather than qualifications, I think the discussion takes on another dimension. The predominant passages we use (Titus 1 & 1 Tim 3) are slightly different, perhaps due to the fact that different settings needed people with different qualities. And with reading, I wonder if the idea is that as a marriage partner one is to be faithful, a "one spouse" kinda person. And perhaps the reading needs to be strictly, "a one woman kinda' man" that would exclude women from this "office" but perhaps it is the spirit of the law here that matters more - a faithful spouse.
I certainly believe that scripture speaks to headship in other places and have no qualms about that.
Just rambling thoughts....
Thank you, Arlene of Texas.
Titus 1:5-9 (New American Standard Bible)
5For this reason I left you in (A)Crete, that you would set in order what remains and (B)appoint (C)elders in every city as I directed you,
6namely, (D)if any man is above reproach, the (E)husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of (F)dissipation or (G)rebellion.
7For the (H)overseer must be above reproach as (I)God's steward, not (J)self-willed, not quick-tempered, not (K)addicted to wine, not pugnacious, (L)not fond of sordid gain,
8but (M)hospitable, (N)loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled,
9(O)holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in (P)sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
1 Timothy 3:1-10 (New American Standard Bible)
1(A)It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the (B)office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2(C)An overseer, then, must be above reproach, (D)the husband of one wife, (E)temperate, prudent, respectable, (F)hospitable, (G)able to teach,
3(H)not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, (I)free from the love of money.
4He must be one who (J)manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of (K)the church of God?),
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become (L)conceited and fall into the (M)condemnation incurred by the devil.
7And he must (N)have a good reputation with (O)those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and (P)the snare of the devil.
8(Q)Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, (R)or addicted to much wine (S)or fond of sordid gain,
9(T)but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
10(U)These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.
Fascinating that the average life span of people in the early 1800's was forty, what an eye opener, nice that you include a little history with your philosophy and theology, a good read!
-Over Forty-
Have you been to Butchart Gardens? Are those your personal pics of Victoria??
-Pics of the Week-
Perhaps not the best place to sleep
Zzzzzzz
-Sleep Funky-
Fascinating that the average life span of people in the early 1800's was forty, what an eye opener, nice that you include a little history with your philosophy and theology, a good read!
-Over Forty-'
Imagine trying to do philosophy and theology without history, I guess I should then include cultic theology, for example, in the pretty red header with white letters...
I enjoyed the walk back from yours in the snow this evening. It is much better without runners and with boots. I have less fear of neck or wrist breakage.
'Have you been to Butchart Gardens? Are those your personal pics of Victoria??
-Pics of the Week-'
Yes, very impressive. Also when I was little my family toured Western Europe and we saw impressive gardens in the Netherlands.
However, I am not into gardening myself and I have my allergies as a God-given excuse to avoid it...forever.
'Perhaps not the best place to sleep
Zzzzzzz
-Sleep Funky-'
I agree, but I do not know why you had to drag our friend ZZZombie into this as he was minding his own private business in Abbotsford as per usual.
I took econ in school and not by choice I might add. Well they showed that video of 200 country's, that was pretty cool how they did that.
I have never taken economics but it would be a good endevour, better than risking a skull fracture like the guy and the mattress.
Cheers, Rick.
Beautiful pic Russ :)
agreed.. women are the helpers..men the overseers.. Good post
Yes, women Biblically can be Deacons, teachers and in modern terms professors.
Thank you, Tamela.
I would never be a member of a church where a woman was the Pastor. The Bible says that the man is supposed to be the spiritual head as Christ is the Head of the Church (1 Corinthians 11:3, "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God"; and 1 Timothy 2:13, "For Adam was formed first, then Eve").
However, women have been missionaries, Sunday School teachers, Vacation Bible School teachers, etc.
Women teaching other women (Titus 2:3-5, "...older women...that they be...teachers...that they admonish the young women...") or children, would seem to be fine, IMO. I also see no problem with women contributing to a group discussion when having a group Bible study, or witnessing to a man (i.e., Acts 18:25-26, "...When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately).
Some say that women should not even speak in church (1 Corinthians 14:34-35, "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.") Even some who have house churches in the U.S. hold to the idea that women should not even speak in a house church, using verses like 1 Timothy 2:11-12 ("A woman should learn in quietness and full submission").
Cheers, Jeff.
'I would never be a member of a church where a woman was the Pastor.'
I agree, especially even more the last several years as I have grown in my understanding becoming more Reformed. However, that does not mean I would sabotage, for example, the ministry of a female Reverend. In 2004, I was in England at the Church wedding of Mr. and Mrs. Documentary Man and I ended up assisting the female Vicar in rewriting some of the wedding vows due to a dispute. I have to honestly admit the Vicar did a rational, good and reasonable job while still maintaining my theological position. I actually told her my Church's position and that I would do my best to assist her with the problem.
'The Bible says that the man is supposed to be the spiritual head as Christ is the Head of the Church (1 Corinthians 11:3, "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God"; and 1 Timothy 2:13, "For Adam was formed first, then Eve").'
Yes, I know about 1 Corinthians. Thanks, Jeff.
1 Corinthians 11:3 (New American Standard Bible)
3But I want you to understand that Christ is the (A)head of every man, and (B)the man is the head of a woman, and God is the(C)head of Christ.
In regard to those verses that state that women should be silent in churches, in that culture most women were married. I remember from Bible college, seminary and scholarship that typically the view is that in the New Testament some women were allowed to teach and be Deacons. The context of being silent in church was that they were to be silent as in not chattering and that they were to be taught at home from their husbands or if single their fathers.
This would not rule out female teaching in church in some context.
I know little about Gandhi but what I wrote had nothing to do with it. I write for my needs and ends up having affinities with other people. I think we have to mature and constantly seeking growth. The Peace.
Blessings in Christ in 2011, Katia, thanks very much.
Aloha from Waikiki
Comfort Spiral
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'Aloha from Waikiki'
And I bet Waikiki is warmer than Maple Ridge right now...let's see...
26°C in Waikiki
4°C in Maple Ridge
Yes 'barely'.
Thanks for the comment Cloudia to cloudy Maple Ridge. And I just came back from Vancouver, again.
William Shatner and Lin Yu Chun sing a forgettable classic from the '80s.
The music mix is far too loud, but the song is forgettable anyway.
This pictures are yours? are beautiful!
(my english is so bad, i'm sorry)
Thanks to follow me, its a pleasure meet you.
ps: about your think, this is a old discussion. Well, in Brazil always is.
Have a nice week,
In love of Jesus,
Ana Miriam
'This pictures are yours? are beautiful!
(my english is so bad, i'm sorry)
Thanks to follow me, its a pleasure meet you.'
Hello Miriam,
Most of the pictures I use are from trekearth.com, some are from Google images, and occasionally I use some of my own taken with my Blackberry or some older ones.
Pleasure to meet you as well.:)
'ps: about your think, this is a old discussion. Well, in Brazil always is.
Have a nice week,
In love of Jesus,
Ana Miriam'
Yes, and I am trying to be Biblical and fair.
Blessings.
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